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AlexK

The Universim Community Labs - Mission #7

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The Universim Community Labs - Mission #7

 

Hi everyone,

 

We just released our patch Chupacabra and we hope you are already starting to enjoy the new features.  Our team has been doing a tremendous job implementing tons of new content every month to the extent that we feel like we are in a good place to slow down this month and actually spend some time on stability and performance improvements for The Universim.  We would like to ask you to help us identify issues with the game such as elements of the game design you might have problems with or annoying bugs.

 

Below are some areas that we would love some focused feedback on.

 

CEMETERY

 

1. We would like to discuss Cemeteries.  How do you think we can improve them?  We noticed that at some point in the game Cemeteries and Gravediggers are getting overwhelmed with a number of dead bodies lying and stinking around the epicenter.  In a lot of these cases, gravediggers are getting confused while trying to reach bodies that are located in unreachable areas.

 

2. The Gravedigger is going too far out thus making him very unproductive.  We currently do not have any range limit for the Gravedigger.  One solution we are planning to add is a maximum distance around the Cemetery that the Gravedigger will be able to see/grab bodies.  This way we will eliminate issues with the gravedigger trying to go out and pick up bodies on the other side of the planet.

 

We are also planning to make some of the graves disappear after 50 or 100 years.  This will free up new space for Nuggets.

 

PYRE

 

1. We need your help with this one as well.  You have probably noticed that the Pyre is not really useful at this point.  We want to make sure that the Pyre and Cemetery have their own pros and cons.  For example, the Pyre has unlimited space for dead nuggets but it uses a lot of wood and Nuggets are unhappy about that fact.  The Cemetery uses no resources, but it has limited grave capacity.

 

Solution: Needed



 

NUGGET POPULATION/REPRODUCTION

 

1. This one is a challenging task as well.  Our goal with reproduction is to make it balanced based on the population and avoid Nuggets multiplying like rabbits at the later stage.  

 

Solution: Proper balancing of the "Matchmaking" God Power will give you guys more control on how you want population progress.


 

In closing, please also let us know what you'd like to see most regarding bug fixes and balance changes.  We're prioritizing things based on our playtests and from player feedback.  

 

Please continue helping us make The Universim the best game it can be.  For our most active helpful and active forum users in this topic, we will be giving out some free t-shirts and awards, stay tuned and keep the feedback coming!

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Possible solution to the Pyre/Cemetery issue; you could add in a sacrifice or offering feature. This may also tie in with the whole faith aspect that you guys have just added. Sacrifice demanded by the god = bad faith and offering make nuggets feel rewarded = good faith

 

Edit: Or add in a feature like mass graves, similar to pyre, but a massive hole in the ground which may have x2 the capacity of the cemetery, this may also be created when there is a huge disease outbreak as mentioned in above post

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2 hours ago, pkessler said:

My civilization always collapses because the first generation starts dying off from old age, and then there is one gravedigger and thirty dead bodies scattered about...and then all of the other nuggets get infections from the dead bodies and soon die themselves. It's an interesting game mechanic, but it really gets in the way and ruins my game every time. In real life, dead bodies don't start rotting right away...at the very least there should be a larger grace period. I think that dead bodies should just lower the happiness of nuggets in their immediate area, and maybe have a very small chance of causing disease if they are left out for too long.

 

As for methods of disposing of the bodies, I think it would make more sense if a nearby nugget would automatically walk up to a corpse and bury it, right on the spot (AKA a nugget would dig for a bit and then the body would disappear into the ground). In prehistoric times they usually just buried the bodies in the ground and moved on, so maybe cemeteries would be for later stages. The mechanic of having to make one nugget in charge of burying every corpse and carrying it and using resources to burn it...it's just too much, and it'll never work correctly if there are too many bodies. 

 

In regards to the matchmaking power, I personally find it annoying to use it (and most powers in general). The controls are very finicky, and it's very hard to select one nugget if it's walking or moving at all. The matchmaking power is too micro-manage-y. I don't want to choose which nuggets mate, I just want it to happen. I like the idea of guiding my civilization and not having to tell each nugget what to do. 

 

 

This. Honestly at this point I wouldn't be upset if Graveyard became automated. What I mean by this is you can still be required to keep a nugget employed at it but just remove the body gathering mechanic all together. Just have them teleport to the grave and maybe put a little funeral animation or something. This would eliminate a LOT of problems. If you want to keep the illness mechanic just make it something random that people get, like how tornadoes randomly appear.

 

The breeding in this recent patch feels like it spend up again. In the previous patch it felt better...slower is better. I can't imagine a stoneage population booming as fast as it currently does in game. If I think of more I will edit this post and add to it.

 

I admit I don't use Pyres often because I don't like the idea that a resource that isn't renewable yet like wood goes into burning the bodies. I haven't checked lately but I recall it being cheaper to just build another cemetery.

 

I like the idea that nuggets can be seen on a graveyard but if you think about it is that really going to matter once we get to space age? Maybe we should just increase the limit the graveyard can hold to something huge like 50 nuggets, have a plaque with the names you can view and just give it a new graphic.

Edited by Valladin82
Adding more.

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2. The Gravedigger is going too far out thus making him very unproductive.  We currently do not have any range limit for the Gravedigger.  One solution we are planning to add is a maximum distance around the Cemetery that the Gravedigger will be able to see/grab bodies.  This way we will eliminate issues with the gravedigger trying to go out and pick up bodies on the other side of the planet.

 

The AOO (area of operation) idea I definitely recommend, this would solve a lot of issues which you mentioned. However, another thing I thought of is that you could have different size cemeteries (small/medium/large or maybe even custom sizes) based on the density or population that the cemetery would be operating in and the amount of job slots depending on the size.

OR

The other idea I had was let the player set a custom AOO (circular) based on what the player thinks is an effective range and have the ability to  change it as they progress to fine tune and adjust.

 

Well, those are some ideas I thought of while playing the game. Feel free to tell me what you think!

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Just thinking, about the situation with dead Nuggets.  Maybe we could have the creator drop of zone.  Also could gravestone be used after 5 years as crop fertiliser? Freeing up the plot once more.  I have found that the newer versions of alpha 19,20 the Nuggets do not breed as well and before long your smaller community is sad because they are overworked.  The fishermen / fisher woman needs to change back to a labour during winter.  Noticed that even running the game at full speed things do not generally get built 😒  As for stability issues I have found saving at 10 minute intervals works.  Can we get a research for whaling, ie. food, oil, leather.  Hunting the Deer and Birds, would help the Nuggets diversifying their diets.  Game works well under a Windows 10 platform and had no recent crashes, however, I do have 32GB of RAM in my gaming laptop.  Cheers, Scott North Queensland, Australia 

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Cemetry / Pyre

 

I'd like to see them kind of related:

 

A gravedigger from the cemetry is going for bodies and will keep burrying them in the cemetry as long as there are free spaces. I'd like to open the cemetry menu and chose by clicking at the graves if this place is open for a burial or not.

Are there no places for a burial open or if the cemetry is already full, the gravedigger should carry the corpses to the pyre. A gravedigger should be the only nugget who is allowed to carry a corpse.

The pyre should be allowed to be fired up by all nuggets. Which means all laberours carrying wood there suffer from the unhappyness penalty. The pyre will consume wood and hapyness (more than the cemetry because almost nobody goes there) - and maby also the oxygen of the planet because of the fires.

The fire should not burn all the time but brighten up as soon as the gravedigger arrives with a corpse. So the pyre should have a stock for a wood pile which the gravedigger can use to burn a corpse.

 

I'd also like to see the range of the unhappiness penalty every time I click on the cemetry or pyre.

 

 

Including alternative ways to get rid of dead bodies

 

For example mass graves that attract wild and aggressive animals, nugget candles - nuggets on spikes to signalize a territory or just for the evil god aura, nuggets thrown in space will float arround the planet causing trouble for space ships leaving the atmosphere

 

 

Nugget population / reproduction

 

Matchmaking:

I find it pretty hard matchmaking all the nuggets the way it is now. I can never tell who to match with whom. It always ends with just clicking arround making many previous partners unhappy. Maybe it would be easier with a better nugget inhabitant summery: right now I can only see the name, job and some characteristics. The favourit-mark-symbols are helpfull to mark those nuggets who are interesting (because of low fat burn, faster movement and so on). But I'd appreciate to also open the specific character sheet of a nugget by simply clicking of its name in this menu instead of clicking at his face and then having a camera travel to the nugget and then clicking at him in the world. It's cool to see this way where the nugget is but I'd need a simplier way to get the character sheet.

And it would be helpfull if the "make love"-god power would work in the nugget inhabitant overview directly. Also I'd appreciate a small symbol at nuggets that are educated and nuggets that are interlaced with other nuggets (maybe there lovers could also be noted in this list). This way I could breed the way I want them to breed in a more effective way instead of just clicking random nuggets in the world.

 

 

consciousness:

 

Nuggets should have some consciousness about the environment. They should reproduce more in times with warehouses full of food, also when the is quite a food base and labourer are needed (because jobs and skills shortage...). They also should move closer together at the edge of extinction, at wars or losing their relatives to wild animals.

But in times with no food, water, too many free labourers and so on, they should lose the interest in reproduction ...

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There are many ideas on how to better deal with corpses. I don't generally use a pyre because the cost in wood makes it unappealing. Maybe you could use the dead body as some sort of fertiliser (after processing) . Another idea is to simply eliminate the role of grave diggers and entirely, instead the relatives carry the body and transport it to the cemetery. Or just give us the ability to resurrect them as zombies.

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I like the suggestion above about the bodies "teleporting" to the grave.  It seems like I need to build about 3 or 4 cemeteries to keep up with the rash of deaths that occurs just after I've researched this technology.  

 

The overall feel of the game is that I have to constantly watch my research as if I missed a few seconds of something being in the queue I will be behind the 8-ball and the population will die.    I've also noticed that it seems I NEED to do matchmaking or these people don't ever get busy and get married.  I like the concept of selective breeding in theory but it could really take a lot of micromanagement and the hardest part is figuring out who isn't already married.    If it was easier to determine the singles from the married, I probably wouldn't mind.  Or to turn off and on auto-matchmaking.  That would give those who want to selectively breed manually the ability to do so and those of us who don't' want to micromanage the freedom not to.   (Or the UI mentioned above would work too)

 

Someone above also mentioned that it feels like they spend most of their time eating, drinking, mating and occasionally a little work.  I've also noticed that they complain that there isn't any food even when there's tons of it available.   

 

I'd love to use the Pyre but I have no idea how it works.  Built it a couple times, tried to drag bodies there....  feel like I'm missing something.  Viking Funerals would also be a fun option.  

 

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Cemeteries

From my opinion, there are several ideas that maybe don't fix it all, but can help to improve the experience:

1_ Why has the gravedigger to carry all the bodies? Maybe in a more advanced society we are used to it, but I don't see the problem with a random nugget (the one who find the body, maybe?) carrying the body till the cemetery in the stone age (this could give you more time to think until we get new eras). They could just leave the body on the cemeterie's door.

2_ If the body is ridicously far from the village (and this happens relatively a lot), why shouls any one carry it? Let the body descompose, or maybe be the meal for an animal (those famous wolfs from the GodMail for example :lol:).

3_ We need more space on them. I think here we would have two possible solutions: properly speaking more space and places being replaced after some time. On the other hanh, coul be cool having nuggets from stone age after hundred of years, maybe you should let everyone choose if they want to replace them or not. But I'm pretty sure we need more space on them.

 

Pyre

I see no possible recomendation with the way the pyre works... because I have never seen it working. Maybe we could give our own ideas about how it should work, but in general I like what you propose so I will just wait you to fix it before I give my feedback.

 

Nugget reproduction/population

Well, I really like the idea of matchmaking but I don't think it should be the principal mechanic. Maybe I still haven't get used to this patch, but I'm finding growing a population larger than 20 pretty dificult, as nuggets don't want to reproduce until I matchmake them. What I'm trying to say is that it's a really nice power but maybe should be used at just some points and your population shouldn't depend on it. In a worked-serious genetic system, a couple changes or conducted reproduction can change everything a lot, so this power should be capable to improve the experience without having to be used too much, just puntually.

In conclusion, I like the idea of having some control over the population but I don't think it should depend too much on you.

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Cemetery: 

  • Family nuggets carry dead nugget to cemetery
  • Old nugget home ( which I can build near the cemetery ) are they working up until they snuff it? that's mean, let them chill ( near the cemetery :D )
  • Some kind of comfort/happiness from having a grave, helps nuggets recover from a family death faster
  • Not clear to me what the radius thing is around this building, I assumed I best keep it away from my main village in case it's depressing to look at
  • No good for mass deaths from disaster or disease

Pyre:

  • Good for mass death/diseased nuggets
  • Witch doctor might enjoy some ash from this or some kind of shaman ( nothing like a fire to dance around or stare into )
  • Used in winter? keeps nuggets around it toasty warm ( and in it, but I don't think those ones care )

 

Having the same issue as other above, a bunch of nuggets are all dying at a similar point in the game and leaving plague everywhere. Why are my nuggets incapable of some basic janitor work? 

 

Breeding

  • Control over huts - I get to build all the other stuff, why not huts. They build them anywhere and it really screws up my tidy village design. If there are no spare huts going, nobody can get together. 
  • I like the idea of being able to selective breed my nuggets, but finding the right ones wandering about is a nightmare, would prefer some kind of nugget UI for this. Not that I have a chance to mate any, It's hard to find any single ones, they are all so randy!
  • Maybe just a button on the hut, to turn on/off breeding from this pair
  • Maybe some kind of priest nugget that I can use to go around preaching the benefits of celibacy or something, can give a choice of different nugget religions with different agendas. 

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Cemeteries

  • Family nuggets carry dead nugget to cemetery
  • Old nugget home ( which I can build near the cemetery ) are they working up until they snuff it? that's mean, let them chill ( near the cemetery :D )
  • Some kind of comfort/happiness from having a grave, helps nuggets recover from a family death faster
  • Not clear to me what the radius thing is around this building, I assumed I best keep it away from my main village in case it's depressing to look at
  • No good for mass deaths from disaster or disease

coped from Rippleberry

Pyre

  • Good for mass death/diseased nuggets
  • Witch doctor might enjoy some ash from this or some kind of shaman ( nothing like a fire to dance around or stare into )
  • Used in winter? keeps nuggets around it toasty warm ( and in it, but I don't think those ones care )
  • add a nugget worker to collect the bodys and the familys of the nugget

 

Nugget reproduction/population

  • add a Season for nugget reproduction in Early game and in modern time remove it like spring or summer and no babys in fall or winter

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11 hours ago, AlexK said:

The Universim Community Labs - Mission #7

 

Hi everyone,

 

We just released our patch Chupacabra and we hope you are already starting to enjoy the new features.  Our team has been doing a tremendous job implementing tons of new content every month to the extent that we feel like we are in a good place to slow down this month and actually spend some time on stability and performance improvements for The Universim.  We would like to ask you to help us identify issues with the game such as elements of the game design you might have problems with or annoying bugs.

 

Below are some areas that we would love some focused feedback on.

 

CEMETERY

 

1. We would like to discuss Cemeteries.  How do you think we can improve them?  We noticed that at some point in the game Cemeteries and Gravediggers are getting overwhelmed with a number of dead bodies lying and stinking around the epicenter.  In a lot of these cases, gravediggers are getting confused while trying to reach bodies that are located in unreachable areas.

 

2. The Gravedigger is going too far out thus making him very unproductive.  We currently do not have any range limit for the Gravedigger.  One solution we are planning to add is a maximum distance around the Cemetery that the Gravedigger will be able to see/grab bodies.  This way we will eliminate issues with the gravedigger trying to go out and pick up bodies on the other side of the planet.

 

We are also planning to make some of the graves disappear after 50 or 100 years.  This will free up new space for Nuggets.

 

PYRE

 

1. We need your help with this one as well.  You have probably noticed that the Pyre is not really useful at this point.  We want to make sure that the Pyre and Cemetery have their own pros and cons.  For example, the Pyre has unlimited space for dead nuggets but it uses a lot of wood and Nuggets are unhappy about that fact.  The Cemetery uses no resources, but it has limited grave capacity.

 

Solution: Needed



 

NUGGET POPULATION/REPRODUCTION

 

1. This one is a challenging task as well.  Our goal with reproduction is to make it balanced based on the population and avoid Nuggets multiplying like rabbits at the later stage.  

 

Solution: Proper balancing of the "Matchmaking" God Power will give you guys more control on how you want population progress.


 

In closing, please also let us know what you'd like to see most regarding bug fixes and balance changes.  We're prioritizing things based on our playtests and from player feedback.  

 

Please continue helping us make The Universim the best game it can be.  For our most active helpful and active forum users in this topic, we will be giving out some free t-shirts and awards, stay tuned and keep the feedback coming!

 

Firstly for Prye and Cemetery.  I think their roles are the same, to address dead bodies. For cemetery, it can be upgraded where the gravedigger can walk faster, rides a vehicle to pick up multi-bodies at the same time in later age and last but not least, .

 

While for Prye, it can be a luxury option where by paying woods you can recover faster form the unhappiness or do a 'generic inheritance' .. where some talent pts may pass from the dead to their spouse/children (can research a new perk to lower the cost, or upgrade the inheritance effect)... This gonna be fun.

 

For Nuggets reproduction/population, suggestions:

a. bring a cap to limit no. of nuggets base on no. of farms/fishing pier built, then create a perk where nuggets will not reproduce once cap is over,

b. use God power to toggle permit to reproduce.

 

 

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In my cemetery I get a max of 2-3 bodies buried and he doesn't seem to bury anymore or doesn't get to them fast enough before they become infected and infect the town and I have to deal with it. I'd like to see families taking the bodies to the cemeteries too, I think it's a great idea and really helps.

 

The pyre doesn't ever seem to be used and all it does is use up wood.

 

As for reproduction, in the beginning (of the games release) it was none stop and I couldn't keep up and now it seems to go fast and then plateaus and then the older generation starts to die off and either infects the rest or there isn't enough to keep everything going and my world dies off. There doesn't seem to be a balance on managing life and death on my worlds.

 

There are huts everywhere and in random places, they will die off in random places too and mine still get trapped in buildings or places they can't be retrieved. Once my main generation start to die the rest become depressed and then stop doing anything which in turns lets the rest die off. I think there needs to be more of a curve and a little more help in regards to bodies and protecting the fragile nuggets

 

One big round of natural deaths and I seem doomed! Is it just me? Maybe I'm unlucky!

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I am having issues with funeral pyre and cemetery. For me, at least, they aren't retrieving the dead bodies fast enough; leaving many contaminated areas which kills off the civilization in no time flat. In one gaming section I had 50 nuggets....and after 3 contaminated spots later, it killed everyone. It would be nice if god powers had scrub contaminated area function or have all the dead bodies teleport to cemetery or funeral pyre. This is the major killer for me in this game.

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For me the notion of a cemetery doesn't sit well with the stone age era. I would rather see pits, or bodies buried randomly by other nuggets to begin with. The penalty being that in doing so they interupt their main work. That way the cemetery becomes a useful upgrade later in the game, as the benefits are more productive nuggets

 

 

To minimise infection, perhaps pathfinding could be more intelligent and give the nugs a chance of evading the rotting putrid flesh of a fallen comrade rather than blinding diving headlong into it each time. Infection perhaps happens only after two or three bodies are in close proximity.

 

In terms of how the cemetery could work: more plots, get nuggets to take the body to the cemetery, have an upgrade where the cemetery send out a wagon that collects multiple bodies in a trip;

 

Could also get wildlife to eat corpses.. So perhaps start with in a "pit" which attracts animals, which in turn act as a food source. Then in a future age, we can upgrade the pit to a series of smaller pits arranged in neat rows to create the illusion of respectful civilsatio... sorry, I mean a graveyard.

Also, get the wildlife to start killing nuggets - that should help keep the population in check.

 

Pyre- only seen it work the once, and had no idea how that happened. Feels like it should be something reserved for a key figure - perhaps a god appointed spiritual leader that reinforces the belief system (good vs evil).

 

Also Perhaps as a god you could influence how you want the dead to be treated, and it becomes a way of generating belief points. Could ultimately lead to a trade-off between a society who does not care much about life having a high mortality/high birth rate vs. one which does and so has a lower birth rate/lower mortality rate, and all the inherent issues that come with each approach, especially, if age is somehow factored in to what a society is able to do (i.e. age bring wisdom which leads to passing on of new ideas, but at the cost of the elderly needing to be cared for, whereas youthful society does not have to worry about caring for the old, but lacks the wisdom and experience to develop new research ideas as quickly, as past experiences are not  passed on as efficiently)

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I think the Pyre could be an automatic failsafe (from the player's perspective) once it's developed, where if enough Nuggets die at once, like after a disaster, war or a generation dying off, they all get disposed of rapidly and dramatically instead of being buried. In that situation, while the Pyre is active any passing Nugget will carry a dead body to it. 

I really like this suggestion too:

13 hours ago, Nemisis311 said:

Suggestion 2: Gravediggers are the stuff nightmares and speculation are made out of, definitely some kookey people (no offense to anyone, just setting the tone =P). Perhaps they don't have needs to fulfill. Their life is the dead. Has anyone ever spotted them making a pittstop at the diner? I don't know the implications this has on the developer side, but maybe upon assigning a gravedigger, while under the duty of gravedigger, the nugget doesn't have personal needs. They just... do their job. Possibly the less educated do it better, giving a purpose to those who didn't make it into the schoolhouse. (oh dear please no one get mat at me lol, its just for stories sake).

 

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My previous civilization had 3 cemeteries built and 2 were already full.  I was in the midst of building 2 more when society fell apart, there were too many dead bodies decomposing.

 If this society kept on thriving, cemeteries would be my most numerous structure.  I could keep 50-60 nuggets feed, but I was falling behind in body disposal.

 

Cemetery: 

  • The number of nuggets it can hold needs to be expanded, greatly.

Pyre:

  • I would like to change the amount of wood used to just one nugget load. Hopefully this would speed up operations.

 

Breeding

      I really don't to micro-manage each family.   We already have research to increase twins birth, maybe research a way to slow the population.

 

 

    Just a thought, different societies had many varied ways to honor the dead. Let's have research branches that change the society based upon the way the dead are treated.  If your society dumps the dead in mass graves, then they grow as a more ruthless society. If your society honors the dead, then they grow as more pastoral.  If your society obsesses over the dead, then they grow more spiritual. 

    This could be a way to allow the creators to focus the new society along different paths to the future.  The choices that are made early in the game will give the creators more control.

 

        

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Thank you all for the feed back :)

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I think like a lot of other people we should be able to use the corpses to help with crops and what not. Or maybe turn the pyre into a burial at sea where nuggets can ship out their family and  either burn them or just dump them in the sea.

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Cemetery:  I think it would be useful if the gravedigger collected the closest bodies first then worked it way outwards. An area limit would also compliment this.

I like the idea of decomposing bodies that would eventually free up a grave spot.

 

Pyre: I'd be happy to do away with this building altogether. Wood is a valuable resource and often causes Nuggets to get injured in the process.

 

Breeding:  Perhaps this god power could be modified slightly to be like Cupid and his bow and arrow i.e. you shoot an arrow at one Nugget and they get that loving feeling ;)

 

 

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb Jono:

useful if the gravedigger collected the closest bodies first then worked it way outwards

 

Hmm, that would result in some problems I think, because their could be an corpse lying for ages right before your eatery where every nugget goes and the gravedigger will only gather the corpses at the sewery because this area is closer to the cemetery.

Maybe there should be a timer. Like "from 2 dead nuggets that died nearly at the same time gather the one closer by first"

And I think there is more needed. Like:

"If 2 nuggets are dead and if those 2 nuggets died at different time points and if both nuggets aren't spreading infection yet, then gather the one that died first"

... and is one of them already spreading infection then it may be better if the gravedigger is going for the other one before this one is spreading too.

 

A maximum reach for the gravedigger above overall is, like I think everybody else think too, should be the best idea.

 

 

 

 

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Cookie:

I think like a lot of other people we should be able to use the corpses to help with crops and what not. Or maybe turn the pyre into a burial at sea where nuggets can ship out their family and  either burn them or just dump them in the sea.

 

Nah, at least I'm against corpses in the bloody diarrhoea fields xD

But I'd appreciate the idea ... how about the pyres. Nuggets that are burnt turning to ashes. And you could use the ashes as a resource to fertilise the fields ...

 

And the pyre ... I'd also like that. But not in general. How about a sea funeral as an option for the pyre. Like ... you need to have researched the pyre and fishing and after that you can degrease the bad influence of the pyre not putting it right into the middle of a town but at the seaside shipping your burnt loves out there.

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One other thing that I think is a very big issue is where the nuggets die at.....had a good amount of them dieing in structures that were hard to reach or impossible to reach....and as the graveyard digger takes their time getting the body, it creates an infection zone inside the structure; basically dooming everyone who enters a structure. The solution here would be that have the nuggets die outside structures only.

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